Would you join me in this prayer?
Dear Lord Jesus, I am simply not able to understand all the hidden mysteries in your Word by my own wisdom. I constantly need your forgiveness and am amazed that you would love me. I want to increase in my understanding of you and in my fellowship with you. Thank you for giving me grace to know you at all. Since you said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." help me to examine these things and all of your word with an eye to know you better, first and foremost. I also would like to join with Paul in his desire that I may know you and the power of your ressurection. I need that no man teach me as long as you lead me into truth, and I don't want to be confused by men's teachings. I only want to know from you what the truth is so I beg you to reveal yourself to me. In Jesus name, Amen?
David you said. [This false doctrine you hold to all comes down to man's attempt to dictate to God what love & justice are.]
My answer to that statement was to show that the source of my information is not man's ideas but God's.
Alfred is refuting my demonstration that God is the one who has authored the same concepts of love and justice that I hold.
[Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Did man dictate these words to God or did God through His Holy Spirit dictate them to men?"
Between a man and his neighbor, yes.
Between a government official and an evil man, no. Back up to verse 3 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:]
Alfred is saying that God's rules regarding love are different than the rules He has given us. He is love and fulfills the law by working the ultimate ill to His children. (He is the Father of All) Eph 4:6
So Alfred is saying that Contrary to the law, (Jesus boasts of fulfilling the law), and He does it by breaking the law that He gives us to keep? The law that He says "Do this so you may be the children of your Father in heaven? (Love your enemies) Love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:8 and 10.
So, to be His children we have to keep the law that He doesn't keep?
I am being accused by Alfred of holding truth out of balance. How do you balance,
God is Love,
Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, and
God prepares a final judgement that is more horrendous than all the Nazi death camps put together plus every other horror that man has ever done to man that NEVER ends?
This for simply not believing in Jesus during this life? Which, BTW, God says is His doing!
Ro 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. (NASB) (This all, is referring to all Israel I think, nevertheless it illustrates that God locked them in disobedience (KJV - unbelief) for the reason that He could show mercy to all of them.)
If God locks them in disobedience, as His word says, and they die that way, and go to hell forever, where is the opportunity for mercy? But Paul says, the reason He locks them up in the disobedience of unbelief, is to show them mercy. Doesn't the traditional belief believe that if God locks them up to disobedience, it is to condemn them to hell forever? If man is locked up in disobedience, how can he get out of that prison? If some manage to get out somehow before they die, then why does God say he locked them all up that He might have mercy on all of them? Did God miscalculate?
David, I have never and will not now say that God is not righteous to judge sin. He is, and HE WILL JUDGE SIN! He is currently judging sin and will judge sin after this life is over and for those whose name is not written, or has been blotted out of the book of Life, all those people will be cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the Bible truth and I am not saying it isn't! Do not be deceived, God is not mocked . . . He judges without respect of persons! He will judge me and He will judge you too! I am eager to be judged by Him, I know I am worthy of death and punishment! Rom 6:32. Yet, I am convinced that all His judgement is good and altogether righteous and that it will in NO way work ill towards me. Oh, it may hurt, but it will also heal and I will come out of it like Him. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!
Are you still with me? : )
Next Alfred said, [Same with "resist not evil". Compare with Deuteronomy 19:12 "Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood (typically a brother), that he may die." Or Leviticus 20:2 "He shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones."]
Does God have power over death? Is physical death equal to eternal death? What does God's word say about death?
Ec 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? . . . 13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, 14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; 15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: 16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. 17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. 18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. 19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master. 20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; 21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; 22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?
Job was not reproved for this understanding. Did you notice who was there? Everyone is resting.
Paul says, about the dead . . . Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
To be dead is to be free from sin? Why would God not forgive anyone who was free from sin? They would be humble. Why wouldn't God give them grace? They could not be proud, why would God resist them?
The only answer I can come up with from scripture is that they died in their sins and now they must be punished UNTIL they have paid the uttermost farthing. (Not for ever. )Matt 5:26 These are Jesus' words not mine.
Paul also welcomed death as a benefit, Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Of course, Paul was "specially saved" so he didn't fear death.
So when God, who has always held the keys to death and hades, brings someone to that state, it is a merciful judgment. (An interesting note: Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Fear of death subjects everyone who has it to bondage all their life! Jesus himself died to deliver THOSE who ALL their lifetime were subject to that bondage. That wouldn't be believers! Paul didn't have that bondage to fear of death anymore!
Do you still have that bondage? When we know and totally trust Him, we are fully delivered from that bondage. Alas for many it won't happen until after death is experienced. "Wide is the gate".
Alfred then concluded that because God authorized execution, that, [THAT is how God also justly does ill to people . . . an execution of justice.]
So Alfred says God who is Love violates the law that He has come to fulfill, by working ill to his neighbor.
An ill that Job desired God would work on Him, an ill that Paul said was better than life.
Taking the life of a reprobate is not working ill, anymore than taking a gangrene infested foot off is working ill. For one, it prevents them from sinning more! If that is working ill then every other death is worse, yet God presides over every death. Ps 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Remember the little virgin girl whose father killed her for a foolish vow he made? Why did God allow her to come out of the house first? Did He hate her? Surely He could have had a chicken or goat run out before her.
Death is everyones lot, it doesn't scare God nor does He see it as something we need to fear, but he allows most to be under the bondage of the fear of death, apparently this girl wasn't.
She willingly laid down her life only bewailing the fact that she never had opportunity to bear children or to know a man. I'm sure God loved her.
Death is an inevitable blessing that need not be feared, but execution for wrong doing is a shameful way to go, still it is only death.Perfect love casteth out fear for fear has torment! Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom but once we know Him who is perfect Love, our fear is cast out, our torment ends. You don't fear death do you?
I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to answer every point Alfred made. You judge the words or you can ignore it. You will make a choice according to the grace God is giving you and I don't mind writing all these things because they draw me closer to my incredible Saviour.
Hope you're still with me David. : )
From Alfreds Message:
[You quote: "45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:"This is what your Father in heaven does: 2 Thess 1:6-9 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"You KNOW that this is so . . . even just because I have pointed it out so many times. Yet you still cling to your heresy that denies it. Truth out of balance . . . grab the verse we like, ignore all the rest.]
This whole chunk can be dealt with by dealing with two words that are not translated properly in the KJV. Alfred neglected to mention that among theologians there is a major controversy regarding the word translated everlasting. It seems that the Greek adjective aionios might not be able to be translated eternal or everlasting or forever and ever as it is in the KJV. I will not weary you with all the details for that could take several pages. Suffice it to say that the very same word is used in the Septuagint in this verse when Jonah prayed Jon 2:6.
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
For ever is aionios, in this case it equals three days. In Jude we read Sodom is an example suffering the vengeance of eternal (aionios) fire. It is the fire that is supposed to be aionios, so we should see it still burning if it is eternal, but aionios simply doesn't mean eternal. If you think there is an invisible eternal fire and Sodom is forever condemned to it, that also contradicts the Bible which states that Sodom shall be delivered. Eze 16:52-55 (The whole chapter gives a better context and I encourage you to look it up.) So here we have Scripture comparing "eternal" fire to a fire that went out in less than a month, and that wiped out those afflicted by it in a few moments. This is an example of what God means by aionios according to Jude and according to Ezekiel, Sodom will be restored.
Alfred knows these arguements and apparently felt they would not be worth mentioning, but instead pretended to have successfully refuted them while accusing me of "picking and choosing"? Of course, time does not allow Alfred or me to show every arguement and verse for and against and explain them all. That's why I don't constantly accuse him of only showing verses that support his side. Why does Alfred continually accuse me of it? I am more than happy when verses that seem to contradict Gods unconditional love are put forward, to show how the contradictions are a mis understanding, a mistranslation or a misrepresentation. I don't shy away from any Scripture, but rather am convinced that the right understanding will be free from all contradiction.
Alfred's Message:["Then what did Jesus mean when He said, Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you . . ."If you are chosen on a game show to be a contenstent, do you have the option to decline? If a man chooses a woman to be his wife, can she say "No"? ]
That is all very nice, but why do you fail to deal with the negative. "YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME!" That was the point.
Here we have Jesus talking to people who have already responded to His choosing and He tells them, You Have Not Chosen Me! If someone is in a stupid game show, they chose to go there when they could have not chosen so, but when they are chosen to be born by God, they get born! They have no say. Did you have any say in your first birth? Where was your free will? Could you have said no, I don't want to be born? How could God have been so cruel to force you to be born??? He even says it's better not to be born but to be still born but He chose for you to be born! Too bad! I guess you have to tuff it out huh? YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, Jesus said, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU. Aren't you glad He did?
Yes, He has chosen everyone to go through different paths. He can do this, He is the creator. Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?Of course God has chosen some as vessels of his mercy in this life but others vessels of wrath. But then cometh the end when he shall have delivered the kingdom to God. 1Cor 15. and He is reconciling everyone.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I'm not forcing this on God, it's in His word! There is no controversy regarding the translation of this verse, like there is regarding aionios, (ever lasting). So which one should give place to the other?
Again from Alfred:["Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:"Faith is a gift extended . . . we say "Yes" or "No". ]
Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.God dealt to every man a mental capacity, (Did you say no thank you to that? Of course not!) a physical appearance, a measure of strength, a measure of health, number of hairs, physical height. Where is our free will in these? It doesn't say God offered us faith, but He dealt it out! God did give us a limited area in which we could make choices, but none of them affect our ultimate salvation, only the "special" salvation. 1Tim 4:10
[No Christian that I know that understands free will would ever state before God and man that it was "of me".]
Then why is it you are saved and someone who doesn't "receive" is not? Are you agreeing that God alone saved you and that God chose to condemn the other to Hell? You are using double speak here. On one hand "you must receive", on the other hand your receiving was nothing, even though it makes all the difference in the world regarding your eternal destiny. Ah, it was nothing God, how I saved myself from eternal destruction by simply making the right choice. Making a choice is something, and if that something saves you, you cannot say it is nothing, especially in the light of the horrendous difference between one decision and the other.We all need to face the fact. Either we are saved by God alone or we are saved by God and our will. God says it was only Him. What do you say? In this we should be careful for their is a judgment though not eternal, nevertheless a judgment which God's word says Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. We are saved by grace, and God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Pride says, I took control of my eternal destiny by my free will. Humility says, God saved me in spite of myself. I had nothing to do with it, and I am no more worthy of that salvation than any other human alive, including the most infamous. like Judas Iscariot and Adolf Hitler. When God saves us, we are changed. We begin to desire Him, He opens our blind eyes to begin to see Him. We begin to understand His love for us and eventually for others as well. We begin to love as He loves.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Note that the hearing and believing are evidence that you HAVE aionios life, you have passed from death unto life!
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Again the evidence that God has performed his saving work already in our life is that we love the brethren, if we don't love anyone, we are abiding still in death. Love is a fruit of our salvation not a work to achieve it. Otherwise our salvation would depend on our work big time.
Alfred's next words are timely:["Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."Prior verse: 12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling." Fear and trembling?! With God doing it all? You make no sense . . . He is at work . . . woe to us if we get in His way."
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."Precisely. IF . . . if . . . what are you missing here?]
Since as we have already illustrated, God alone grants belief or witholds it. Sorry Alfred, your belief is a RESULT of God's saving NOT your ticket to salvation. NOTHING YOU HAVE DONE. God is able to open their eyes to believe and receive, He is not dependent on our will or decision. He is able to persuade us. Look at Paul's salvation. He was anything but willing. On the road to Damascus to persecute the Christians there. God simply knocked him off his horse blinded him spoke to him in the thunder and viola, He was saved. With man it is impossible but not with God, with God all things are possible!
Alfred clearly denies this, saying it is not possible for God to violate our free will. Where does the Bible say that God will not violate our free will?
As for working out your own salvation with fear and trembling! I have already stated two evidences of having passed from death to life. One is we hear His word and believe on Him that sent Jesus, the other is that we love our brothers and if we don't love anyone of our brothers then we have not passed from death to life yet.
What salvation do we work out? That would have to be our current deliverance from bondage to the fear of death, our entering into the abiding relationship with Jesus, the salvation that only comes to believers in this life.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, . . . 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. I encourage you to read the whole chapter. I only included highlights.Verse ten speaks of two different salvations, one for all men and the second is special for believers. This is the one we work out with fear and trembling because the path to the general Salvation can be extremely difficult and will involve torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth until they come to the faith of Jesus and Him alone.
As to Alfred's comments on "many". He speaks of only "many" being saved. Let's look at that.
The context is:Ro 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (for who? The believers?)
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (While we were yet sinners?)
9 Much more then, being NOW justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (justified through our choice or by His blood?)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (When were we reconciled? When we were still enemies?) We didn't choose Him, He chose us!
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Note: Death passed upon ALL men, how many? All!
Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one MANY be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. How many? Verse 12 tells us that the "many" who are dead is "all men" for that "all" have sinned.
So, "many" , in this context, means a multitude that includes all men. True? Yes true!
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of MANY offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; MUCH MORE they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
For those who receive it,(now) they shall reign in life.(now) "Specially saved."
18 Therefore AS by the offence of one judgment CAME UPON ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift CAME UPON ALL men unto justification of life.
In the KJV the words "the free gift" are in italics which means they are not in the Greek, but even if they were there, I have shown that it is not a gift we can refuse when it is given, but I don't need to make that arguement here because there is no reference here to a free gift, that is a phrase added by the translators.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Again, how many were made sinners? All were made sinners, why would the second many be less, when sin abounded grace did much more abound. Saved by grace, not of yourselves, remember?The word "many" literally means multitudes, to indicate the great scope of God's mercy. It is not meant to mean less than all, as is clearly illustrated in the many have sinned and many are dead statements.So once again, Alfred has not shown you the whole picture. He's just picking and choosing. LOL. : )
Finally
[SO . . . perhaps "ALL Israel" means "Israel as an entity" (governmentally, the group, the purpose, all 12 tribes as an authority structure . . . many feel that Dan, for example, got dropped) . . . Your interpretation is not reasonable, contradicted by a multitude of Scripture . . .]
This is huge, Alfred merely suggests "perhaps". : )
Jesus said, regarding the ones who rejected Him and crucified Him, Father forgive them, they don't know what they do. Wow! Can you imagine? Instead of angry wrath He had pity and compassion!
These were individual Jews and Romans who had just treated Him in the most disrespectful and cruel manner which He knew would soon culminate in His death. Why would He forgive them and not the rest of God's chosen people? Has anyone treated Jesus worse than these men? Again, what about Paul, "the chief of sinners" according to his own testimony. Why did God go so far to save Him?
Because He is saving everyone.
That is the good news (gospel) that Alfred scorns and rejects.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
This is the essence of what I'm teaching. No man can come to Jesus unless it is given to Him of the Father. "Not of Yourself."
When Jesus taught this, many of His disciples walked no more with Him.
I ask you along with Jesus, "will you also go away?"
